This week, I'm talking with Roland Guijt about career, entrepreneurship, being an introvert and how he got started as a computer shop owner. This was a very honest, open and inspiring conversation.
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Unknown:
This week on Developer Weekly. So I'm not a person who who who can extract energy from being with other people. It actually takes me energy, and it doesn't take away the enjoyment around it because I really enjoy it, but it's it's it it costs me energy, and I have to recharge afterwards by being by self and do my own things.
[00:00:30] Unknown:
Hey, guys. I've been using Windows 10 for years now, and I recently took the time to learn how to be more productive with it. There are lots of shortcuts and tools in Windows 10 that help me throughout the day. Do you also want to be more productive with Windows 10? Then check out my new Udemy course called Windows 10 Productivity Booster. You can check it out at azureberry.com/windows. That is azureberry.com/windows. Welcome to another episode of Developer Weekly. This week, I'm talking with Roland Gout. Roland is a Microsoft MVP enjoying a constant curiosity around new techniques in software development. He's also a Microsoft certified trainer, international speaker, Pluralsight author, and overall community champion. Hey, Roland. Welcome back. Hi, buddy. How are you? Yeah. I'm doing, I'm doing alright. It's, you know, it's cold here in the Netherlands. I don't like it. Yeah.
[00:01:31] Unknown:
It's a it's a pleasure to be here again, man.
[00:01:34] Unknown:
Thanks for inviting me. Yeah. Thanks for coming on. Because you were on, episode, 23. So that's, like, 20 weeks ago or something, half a year ago, talking about, microservices because you just came out with the ProSight course about microservices back then Yep. Which was very cool. People seem to like that episode because they like microservices. Yeah. So that's a very very well received episode.
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I I remember I was very honest in the in that interview. Maybe too honest.
[00:02:07] Unknown:
No. You know, people like, actual real world advice from experts. You know, should you do it? Should you not do microservices? And and why should you and why shouldn't you? You know, if if we just only deliver marketing, spiels, then people, they just drop off. You know, it's not interesting and it's not real as well. So you you did a great job there.
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Thanks.
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So So what what do you want to talk about today? Well, you know, originally I was thinking to talk about signal r, which is a very interesting technology that allows you to do real time stuff on the web. Maybe we could talk about that later a bit, but I thought maybe it would be more interesting to talk about, you and your career and the things that you've learned along the way because, you know, you've been doing this a long time. You're a very, very accomplished, person in the IT industry. And so I thought it might be a bit more valuable to, for the listener. It's also just more entertaining for us to talk about it.
[00:03:09] Unknown:
Yeah. This as great about what you did.
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So Yeah. Maybe you can start by, tell us how you even got into IT in the first place.
[00:03:20] Unknown:
Oh, that's a good one. Yeah. So, yeah, so let's go back to the beginning then. So way back when I was, maybe I was about 10 or 12 year years old. I had this, this history teacher, and back then well, I'm really old. Right? I'm, I'm 50. So, so back then, nobody had, had a personal computer yet. And I remember, doing, doing work for school, and I printed it out on my on my on my matrix printer. And, teachers, wouldn't accept that because they thought it was generated somehow by a computer, though. So that that was the time we lived in back then, but but nobody had a computer. And suddenly, this this math teacher, he he came with this, with this computer in the in the inside the classroom, and he showed me a couple of things.
And I remember that moment. From that moment on, I was really hooked. I couldn't think about anything else, and I I just wanted to have a computer. So I, I worked at the grocery store, back then on Saturdays because I still go went to school, and I saved up for for a z z zed x 81. Don't know if you know that. It's a really really tiny computer with one KB of RAM, and you could program a basic with that. Cool. And, in a in a very basic way, basic in a basic way. And, so I started I started doing hobby work with that, and I became fascinating, fascinated by computers as a whole. And and at some point, I, I started a a store do, the and actually sold computers with, and it was kind of service related selling of computers.
And, it became, it became a little bit a little bit bigger. I I, I ended up with a couple of stores. But at some point, It didn't go very well because the Internet hype, etcetera, and and we started to order, these these things from, from Cool Blue or whatever. So, that stopped. But in the meantime, I, I programmed, in in Delphi, I programmed, a system to, well, to to basically do the the in store, to to create invoice invoices in store and to, do the administration, and I created it myself. I don't have the code anymore, but I think it it would look terrible. Right? At this moment, when I should should look at it. But, anyways, so the these, these things stopped. These these shops stop, and it was actually well, at the time, so I went bankrupt, basically. That was that was a thing emotionally also.
But it's, in hindsight, it really opened up opportunities to do something else. So I followed my passion, and I I, I continued on the on the, on on the on the software development path, and I ended up with, some guys from, it was this company was called Ostercamp, back back then. It was pretty well known, and it they did kind of Delphi training, with Thomas and and Jeroen. And, I got involved with that, and I I started to learn to teach, and I really love that. And these guys give gave me the opportunity to, well, to to, yeah, to actually have experience with that.
And, at some point, I also became the owner of that company, and we moved to dot net. We started to do .net, from, from the, well, from from 1.0 beta onwards, we went to .net. And, so I did it for a while, and I stopped doing that, and I went freelance. And at that time, Pluralsight was, was, well, kind of new. It was, I think it was 2013 back then. And, Pluralsight was was coming up. And I was so I was thinking, okay, what do I really love to do. And I already had this hobby with video, creating, video recording, and also editing. I love to do that. And, of course, I had this his passion to teach, in combination with his passion for software development.
So it all kind of matched up match up with this Pluralsight author work. And, and I started to create courses, and my first course was push a hell to create. You know that feeling probably. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And, so I finished it, after after of struggling with it, and, I swore to self. I'm never going to do that again. But, couple of months later, the feeling came back, and, I started doing more. And, I actually have I think I've done 30 right now, 30 courses. Wow. And it's it's, I I still love to do it. And at some point, you get this this, this workflow.
Recreate this workflow for yourself, and it becomes easier and easier, and it also helps you with, with the other things I'm doing, so, I try to do a combination between, Pluralsight teaching, also classroom teaching, and, speaking at conferences, etcetera. But I try to do that, from practice. So I I don't like to teach out of a book. I like to teach, so I like to be with my feet in the clay once in a while. And, so I'm doing, contracting work for companies once in a while. And I, I dive into a certain technology, and I create stuff. And from and I use that knowledge in my Pluralsight training, and in my classroom training, and my conference, talks.
And of course, when I'm doing Pluralsight training, I also do research for these try for these for these courses. Well, it's it's seems like a Bluerside course is it's about an hour or 2 hours, so you think, oh, that that's easy. Well, it actually takes months to create, to create something like that, with the planning and research, the scripting, the editing, the recording, etcetera, etcetera. Yeah. But, anyways, so, with this research I do for my courses, I can again go to customers and say, oh, I have this be, and I want to bring it to practice, and I I bring it to practice there. So I get this this synergy effect between these activities, and I really love that. And I so it's it's something I found to really work with me.
I can do well on my own. So, yeah, I'm I'm really good with that. I can organize myself. I can have, I can have the motivation to to create things. So, that's really, really for me. And, yeah, I I would like to to continue this for as long as possible, basically. Wow. So that was a long story, Baric.
[00:11:03] Unknown:
That's a great story actually, and there's a there's a lot in there that I didn't know yet. So that that's great. So lots of stuff to, to unpack there. So for instance, you started these computer companies, which is just, incredible. What, how old were you when you started this?
[00:11:20] Unknown:
Wow. Let's see. That was so I started working for, a computer shop in in Amsterdam, and at some point, that stopped. And then, a guy who was, who was working there, he started his own shop. And so I and then I took over one of his one of his shops, basically, and that that's how it started. And I think that was around so I think I was, maybe, I think it was 22 or something, when I when I started doing that. Wow. And maybe 25 when I took over the shop.
[00:12:02] Unknown:
Ah, okay. Yeah. So you had just a brief period where you were an actual employee for a company. And after that you became an entrepreneur.
[00:12:11] Unknown:
Yeah. So I started my, my company, when I took over the shop, and that was, that was that company, and it eventually went bankrupt. And then I started another company. And, from that I still have that company. And and from that company, in in that company. I'm doing my current activities.
[00:12:31] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. That's very cool. So why did you start to become an entrepreneur in the first place. Why didn't you just want to be an employee where, you know, everything is taken care of for you? You get your salary, you get your pension, everything is done for you. No risks there. Why would you take the risk to become an entrepreneur?
[00:12:53] Unknown:
Yeah. Well, first of all, it's in my blood because my father is an entrepreneur. My my granddad was an entrepreneur, and they had, had shops as well. So, I was I was stimulated by that, basically. And once I start doing it, I really love the sense of freedom. Because, yeah, you can basically, especially right now, I can I can just say no to things? Right? I like that. When somebody asks you, can you do this? You can just say no. And when you when you have when you're an employee, you really are I feel obligated to say to say yes to everything. My, my boss tells me to. And now I can just say no, and I can also arrange my own time. Right? So, I have this balance between activities, like I told you, and, I can I can, adjust this balance, the way I want to? So I like that as well.
[00:13:54] Unknown:
Right. Yeah. The the freedom of, time and to say no. That is Yeah. Exactly. Those are the things that attract me as well to entrepreneurship. And just, you know, I don't like people to tell me what to do. Just I just don't like it. You have a problem with with a hierarchy, probably. Yeah. There's probably some some deep thing inside me that I need to resolve or something.
[00:14:17] Unknown:
You have to go to the therapy for that. Yeah.
[00:14:22] Unknown:
Okay. So and before that, did you, have a, a formal education in computer science or something like that? No. No. Not at all. So,
[00:14:33] Unknown:
I am probably what people call a self made man. Yeah. Self made person. And, because I I really I I missed a boat on that one, basically. So I did a study or whatever, and I I didn't get the right people around me probably to to guide me, to the path because I, I did I didn't study. Yeah. I did I did practical education. I did, actually, education around entrepreneurship, so that was included. And back then, you you needed a certificate to create your own company, and I got that at school. Oh. But I didn't go, go study at a university or something. I just started, well, doing what I like, basically.
And, I build I build stuff up from that. Yeah. Okay. That's why that entrepreneurship comes in again.
[00:15:28] Unknown:
You say, alright. I don't I don't really care what you taught me there. I'm just gonna do my own thing.
[00:15:34] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. Basically, that's it. Cool. So,
[00:15:37] Unknown:
in in your core, in your heart of heart, are you an, introvert or an extrovert?
[00:15:44] Unknown:
Introvert. Definitely.
[00:15:46] Unknown:
Okay. Because, you know, in your entrepreneurship where you had to shop and also where you worked with, other people to, teach, in person, which you sometimes still do. Right. That's, that's very extroverted because you need to deal with people. How does that make you feel?
[00:16:05] Unknown:
It took me a long time to get used to that. So in the beginning, I was really, really, tense around that, and I couldn't handle it very much. So I needed some time to, to get used to it. I'm really grateful for the conferences at that time who gay who gave me the opportunity to speak because, Yeah. That was really a struggle for me, and and these talks weren't very good at the beginning, probably. And also, to Pluralsight, of course, gave me that opportunity. So I I I just grew into that. And, and and still I have, well, I can do talk talks like this. I can talk to you. I can I can do conference talks, and and I really enjoy the company of, have other speakers at conferences, or talking to, to talking to, people who take my courses, etcetera, etcetera? I really love that. But, I still notice that, because I'm an introvert probably, I need time afterwards, for myself.
So I'm not a person who who who can extract energy from being with other people. It actually take me energy. And it it doesn't take away the enjoyment around it, because I really enjoy it. But it's it It costs me energy, and I have to recharge afterwards by being by myself and doing my own things. Yeah. Basically. Yeah. That's very well, explained. I I feel completely the same. I can't do And if you want if if you want to win. If you want to know more about that, you can talk to my wife, by the way. Sorry. I was interrupting you. No. No. That's alright.
[00:17:52] Unknown:
So, yeah, I I have the same thing as well. I can do extroverted stuff, like, on stage or something, But it sucks energy from me. It doesn't, doesn't feed my soul. I do like it. I do enjoy it. But then afterwards I need to recharge. That that's very true. Did you know this about yourself, early on, or did you find out that you were an introvert at your core later?
[00:18:17] Unknown:
I kind of already knew that from the beginning. Yeah. It's In the beginning, it it was, it was kind of implicit. And, at some point, it, it became explicit as soon as I, started doing training work. So at that point, I really had to focus on it, and I could actually work on it and and and create some mode, that I could, in which I could handle that, basically.
[00:18:49] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. So for me, I basically knew that as well when I was younger, but then I really, You know, I realized it more when I was older. So I didn't really realize why I was always, why the energy got sucked out of me when I was surrounded by people and why I really didn't like that that much for prolonged periods of time. And then I realized, oh, you know, I'm just an introvert, really. Yeah. And now that you say that, it's actually very interesting.
[00:19:23] Unknown:
At first, now remember things about it. At first, I thought, I was the only one. Right. I was the only one that had this. Right? Yeah. Because you you see all these extrovert people that is really in that really extract energy from company, etcetera, etcetera. And, I was the only one it seems like I was the only one that, wanted to, retract at a certain point and and and go by by by myself. But, of course, the people that also do that, you don't see them. Write. Exactly. Yeah.
[00:20:00] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, the introverted people are also the people that are attracted to the type of work that we do. So, IT and things that you can do by yourself and, you know, things that you can do behind your computer, basically, because that works out well.
[00:20:17] Unknown:
Yeah. Exactly.
[00:20:19] Unknown:
Yeah. So the things that you do now, you know, you are in a very say, You know, you enjoy the the freedom that you can now say no to things, and you can just you can pick and choose what you do. You do a Pluralsight course here. You work, a bit there. Does that also mean that you are financially free? Like, if you were to say, you know what? I'm not gonna do any consulting right now consulting right now and maybe no ProLside courses. Would you Yep.
[00:20:54] Unknown:
So there are a couple of things I want to say there. The answer is yes. So I'm I'm financially free. So, basically, the success of Pluralsight did a lot for that. And at the time I started doing that, it was, it was kind of, well, a thing that I I well, I told you it was something I liked, so that's why I started doing it, not not to make, to make money in the in the first place just because I like doing it, and I still do it because I like it. But, yeah. It, it it brought me, financial freedom, and also, not only Pluralsight, but also the work around it. Like I told you, the consultancy went really well, and everything kind of worked out.
So I'm really grateful for that. But I think I'm not, crediting myself too much for it, because I really think it's more a question of luck, basically, then that it is, emanating from myself. Because I got I got the luck that Pluralsight became a success. I got the luck. I, I I I I became a a Microsoft MVP, for example, and other people liked what I what I was doing, and other MVPs supported me. So I had luck in that. Of course, I did stuff for that, but the really the opportunities were there. I just I just had to grab them, basically. Yeah. So so, I'm grateful for that because, there are so many other people that don't have these opportunities. Right? Yeah.
And, and that's that's really something I'm realizing every day that that, well, I'm not saying, well, I am I I did this and I did that. No. I'm I'm like, okay. There there's There's probably a really big, luck factor there.
[00:23:04] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. I do agree. I have, kind of the same situation where I also have Pluralsight there. That is a huge component of my, financial situation. And I was just lucky as well that I got into Pluralsight and even discovered it in the first place. And that it became and is still a success for now. Exactly. Yeah. So I'm I'm very lucky with that as well. And I also try and think about the future. Like Pluralsight, what would happen if Pluralsight would go away tomorrow? It's unlikely, but, you know, maybe they get acquired by something else or, you know, the company goes in a different direction. It is something that we do not control ourselves.
I don't own parasites. You don't. So we have no idea. What if it would go away? What would you do then?
[00:23:53] Unknown:
So, I would not stop what I'm doing right now. So I would find another way to do what I'm doing. So maybe, go to YouTube or something, creating videos for that, or finding another platform that, that does what it does, that's into software development. There are other platforms out there as well, but I wouldn't stop because, just Pluralsight isn't there anymore. So my motivation for doing what I'm doing is not tied to Pluralsight as a company.
[00:24:29] Unknown:
Right. Yeah. That's excellent. And, so, our Pluralsight colleagues, we have a lot of Pluralsight colleagues that are, full time authors, where they just do courses. They create courses, they do the research online, and they draw from their past experiences as well, and then they just create courses. You do it differently. Right? Because you also do consultancy. Why do you do that?
[00:24:57] Unknown:
Yeah. So I I believe in the fact that the best teaching is done, from practice. So, I consciously do, do projects, actually writing code, actually being involved in get an agile process, talking to people, creating an Azure pipeline, that kind of stuff, create a development pipeline or whatever deployment pipelines. So the whole the whole thing, because, I'm there there are a couple of reasons for that. So one so one thing is, like I told you, it's it's it's a it's a matter of belief that I think I can do the best teaching when I have this experience under the belt. That's 1.
And the second thing is that I'm actually, inspired by that work. So when I when I'm doing that work, I'm seeing things, either technically or or in the organization. And I get got I I get ideas from that. So I'm like, okay. Well, maybe I could do a course around that, or, create a conference talk for that, or, so then, when I have this this plan, and I am I'm executing that plan, I'm doing research around it, I gain more knowledge around it, and then I go to the next company, and then I can actually apply that knowledge again in that company, and I get this synergy effect between my activities.
And that that's re really working out really great. That that's that's working out really great for me.
[00:26:48] Unknown:
Yeah. I think that's also, the way to go because then you actually teach from, experience, and you can you can add your real world experience. That is usually different than just the documentation and all the things that, that is very polished and marketing esque. Because when you actually start doing something, then you run into the nitty gritties and the, oh, well, it doesn't work if you do this, or you need to configure it just like this because otherwise, you know, you get this error.
[00:27:16] Unknown:
Yeah. Exactly. So I I like to do when I do classroom training, of course, Pluralsight course is all scripted and and really nice and compact. But when I do classroom training, I like to do I like to do live demos. So, when when we when we're discussing a topic, I first explain the topic in theory, and then I just go, behind the keyboard, and I'm I'm writing something to explain it. But, so I've not practice that or something, so, things go wrong, basically. So and I I actually show that because that's reality. Right? You're a developer. You're writing code. Things go wrong always. You have to how do you solve these problems? Right? So you you can't remember this. You can't remember, how a property is declared or whatever.
Yeah. How do you solve that? Right? And that's actually, how I, how I teach classroom training. And from the feedback back I got, people really like that, and they can apply that, well, problem solving, thing that I that I'm that I'm actually showing, to, in the real world.
[00:28:35] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. Maybe we should incorporate that in the pro side courses more as well. Yeah.
[00:28:40] Unknown:
Yeah. I am not sure that they would like that. But
[00:28:45] Unknown:
they do like their stuff, very polished. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. So we are almost at the the end of the time that we have. What would you say to people that are listening that are starting their careers, maybe in technology or something, they haven't sign a jet if they want to stay, work for a company or be an entrepreneur or, or maybe in what kind of technology they want to be at or what they want to do with their the rest of their lives. Well, who actually knows? But what would you say to them? What is your advice to young
[00:29:19] Unknown:
people. Yeah. So this is this is really a cliche probably, but I'm going to say it anyways. Do what you love. Right? That's basically the the message. So, when you are so when you are looking for a job or you don't know exactly what you like to do. But you have a hobby, and you like you have a certain interest, and you're watching get a lot of YouTube on the topic or whatever, or you're reading stuff about around that. That's an indicator, around what you want. And even when that it seems that it is not feasible to to start your career in that topic, just do it.
Just try it. And maybe you can you cannot earn money, from the start from it, and then just do it part time or or make it work, just, just start doing it. And and The other thing I wanted to say is, well, in my experience, the the opportunities are always there, almost always there, but you really have to see them. Right? And and and it's especially difficult when you're an introvert like me. You sometimes you have to step forward and say, okay. I see this opportunity. I want that. Right? I really want I would love that. You can and when you say that to people, and, like, they can see your passion, and they are inclined to to help you or or, create a way for you to do it. All right. That's beautiful.
[00:30:58] Unknown:
Thank you very much.
[00:30:59] Unknown:
I'm crying right now.
[00:31:04] Unknown:
Well, thank you so much, for talking to me today. This was, this was a great conversation.
[00:31:09] Unknown:
You're welcome, buddy. Alright. I really enjoyed this talk. Me too.
[00:31:14] Unknown:
I hope, everybody that listened, did as well. I will link to, where you can find Roland's courses and his website and Twitter and connect with him in the show notes so that you can easily do that. Do reach out to him and follow him on Pluralsight. He has great courses about asp.net, the asp.netcore, other stuff, microservices, React, SignalR, you name it. He has so many courses. Just follow him there for new material as well. And thank you very much for listening, and we'll talk to you next week. Could you please go to rate this podcast.com/developerweekly and rate this podcast and leave a review?
This helps me to spread the word about the podcast and helps other people to find it. That is rate This podcast.com/developerweebly. Thank you so much.
This week on Developer Weekly. So I'm not a person who who who can extract energy from being with other people. It actually takes me energy, and it doesn't take away the enjoyment around it because I really enjoy it, but it's it's it it costs me energy, and I have to recharge afterwards by being by self and do my own things.
[00:00:30] Unknown:
Hey, guys. I've been using Windows 10 for years now, and I recently took the time to learn how to be more productive with it. There are lots of shortcuts and tools in Windows 10 that help me throughout the day. Do you also want to be more productive with Windows 10? Then check out my new Udemy course called Windows 10 Productivity Booster. You can check it out at azureberry.com/windows. That is azureberry.com/windows. Welcome to another episode of Developer Weekly. This week, I'm talking with Roland Gout. Roland is a Microsoft MVP enjoying a constant curiosity around new techniques in software development. He's also a Microsoft certified trainer, international speaker, Pluralsight author, and overall community champion. Hey, Roland. Welcome back. Hi, buddy. How are you? Yeah. I'm doing, I'm doing alright. It's, you know, it's cold here in the Netherlands. I don't like it. Yeah.
[00:01:31] Unknown:
It's a it's a pleasure to be here again, man.
[00:01:34] Unknown:
Thanks for inviting me. Yeah. Thanks for coming on. Because you were on, episode, 23. So that's, like, 20 weeks ago or something, half a year ago, talking about, microservices because you just came out with the ProSight course about microservices back then Yep. Which was very cool. People seem to like that episode because they like microservices. Yeah. So that's a very very well received episode.
[00:02:02] Unknown:
I I remember I was very honest in the in that interview. Maybe too honest.
[00:02:07] Unknown:
No. You know, people like, actual real world advice from experts. You know, should you do it? Should you not do microservices? And and why should you and why shouldn't you? You know, if if we just only deliver marketing, spiels, then people, they just drop off. You know, it's not interesting and it's not real as well. So you you did a great job there.
[00:02:31] Unknown:
Thanks.
[00:02:33] Unknown:
So So what what do you want to talk about today? Well, you know, originally I was thinking to talk about signal r, which is a very interesting technology that allows you to do real time stuff on the web. Maybe we could talk about that later a bit, but I thought maybe it would be more interesting to talk about, you and your career and the things that you've learned along the way because, you know, you've been doing this a long time. You're a very, very accomplished, person in the IT industry. And so I thought it might be a bit more valuable to, for the listener. It's also just more entertaining for us to talk about it.
[00:03:09] Unknown:
Yeah. This as great about what you did.
[00:03:12] Unknown:
So Yeah. Maybe you can start by, tell us how you even got into IT in the first place.
[00:03:20] Unknown:
Oh, that's a good one. Yeah. So, yeah, so let's go back to the beginning then. So way back when I was, maybe I was about 10 or 12 year years old. I had this, this history teacher, and back then well, I'm really old. Right? I'm, I'm 50. So, so back then, nobody had, had a personal computer yet. And I remember, doing, doing work for school, and I printed it out on my on my on my matrix printer. And, teachers, wouldn't accept that because they thought it was generated somehow by a computer, though. So that that was the time we lived in back then, but but nobody had a computer. And suddenly, this this math teacher, he he came with this, with this computer in the in the inside the classroom, and he showed me a couple of things.
And I remember that moment. From that moment on, I was really hooked. I couldn't think about anything else, and I I just wanted to have a computer. So I, I worked at the grocery store, back then on Saturdays because I still go went to school, and I saved up for for a z z zed x 81. Don't know if you know that. It's a really really tiny computer with one KB of RAM, and you could program a basic with that. Cool. And, in a in a very basic way, basic in a basic way. And, so I started I started doing hobby work with that, and I became fascinating, fascinated by computers as a whole. And and at some point, I, I started a a store do, the and actually sold computers with, and it was kind of service related selling of computers.
And, it became, it became a little bit a little bit bigger. I I, I ended up with a couple of stores. But at some point, It didn't go very well because the Internet hype, etcetera, and and we started to order, these these things from, from Cool Blue or whatever. So, that stopped. But in the meantime, I, I programmed, in in Delphi, I programmed, a system to, well, to to basically do the the in store, to to create invoice invoices in store and to, do the administration, and I created it myself. I don't have the code anymore, but I think it it would look terrible. Right? At this moment, when I should should look at it. But, anyways, so the these, these things stopped. These these shops stop, and it was actually well, at the time, so I went bankrupt, basically. That was that was a thing emotionally also.
But it's, in hindsight, it really opened up opportunities to do something else. So I followed my passion, and I I, I continued on the on the, on on the on the software development path, and I ended up with, some guys from, it was this company was called Ostercamp, back back then. It was pretty well known, and it they did kind of Delphi training, with Thomas and and Jeroen. And, I got involved with that, and I I started to learn to teach, and I really love that. And these guys give gave me the opportunity to, well, to to, yeah, to actually have experience with that.
And, at some point, I also became the owner of that company, and we moved to dot net. We started to do .net, from, from the, well, from from 1.0 beta onwards, we went to .net. And, so I did it for a while, and I stopped doing that, and I went freelance. And at that time, Pluralsight was, was, well, kind of new. It was, I think it was 2013 back then. And, Pluralsight was was coming up. And I was so I was thinking, okay, what do I really love to do. And I already had this hobby with video, creating, video recording, and also editing. I love to do that. And, of course, I had this his passion to teach, in combination with his passion for software development.
So it all kind of matched up match up with this Pluralsight author work. And, and I started to create courses, and my first course was push a hell to create. You know that feeling probably. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And, so I finished it, after after of struggling with it, and, I swore to self. I'm never going to do that again. But, couple of months later, the feeling came back, and, I started doing more. And, I actually have I think I've done 30 right now, 30 courses. Wow. And it's it's, I I still love to do it. And at some point, you get this this, this workflow.
Recreate this workflow for yourself, and it becomes easier and easier, and it also helps you with, with the other things I'm doing, so, I try to do a combination between, Pluralsight teaching, also classroom teaching, and, speaking at conferences, etcetera. But I try to do that, from practice. So I I don't like to teach out of a book. I like to teach, so I like to be with my feet in the clay once in a while. And, so I'm doing, contracting work for companies once in a while. And I, I dive into a certain technology, and I create stuff. And from and I use that knowledge in my Pluralsight training, and in my classroom training, and my conference, talks.
And of course, when I'm doing Pluralsight training, I also do research for these try for these for these courses. Well, it's it's seems like a Bluerside course is it's about an hour or 2 hours, so you think, oh, that that's easy. Well, it actually takes months to create, to create something like that, with the planning and research, the scripting, the editing, the recording, etcetera, etcetera. Yeah. But, anyways, so, with this research I do for my courses, I can again go to customers and say, oh, I have this be, and I want to bring it to practice, and I I bring it to practice there. So I get this this synergy effect between these activities, and I really love that. And I so it's it's something I found to really work with me.
I can do well on my own. So, yeah, I'm I'm really good with that. I can organize myself. I can have, I can have the motivation to to create things. So, that's really, really for me. And, yeah, I I would like to to continue this for as long as possible, basically. Wow. So that was a long story, Baric.
[00:11:03] Unknown:
That's a great story actually, and there's a there's a lot in there that I didn't know yet. So that that's great. So lots of stuff to, to unpack there. So for instance, you started these computer companies, which is just, incredible. What, how old were you when you started this?
[00:11:20] Unknown:
Wow. Let's see. That was so I started working for, a computer shop in in Amsterdam, and at some point, that stopped. And then, a guy who was, who was working there, he started his own shop. And so I and then I took over one of his one of his shops, basically, and that that's how it started. And I think that was around so I think I was, maybe, I think it was 22 or something, when I when I started doing that. Wow. And maybe 25 when I took over the shop.
[00:12:02] Unknown:
Ah, okay. Yeah. So you had just a brief period where you were an actual employee for a company. And after that you became an entrepreneur.
[00:12:11] Unknown:
Yeah. So I started my, my company, when I took over the shop, and that was, that was that company, and it eventually went bankrupt. And then I started another company. And, from that I still have that company. And and from that company, in in that company. I'm doing my current activities.
[00:12:31] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. That's very cool. So why did you start to become an entrepreneur in the first place. Why didn't you just want to be an employee where, you know, everything is taken care of for you? You get your salary, you get your pension, everything is done for you. No risks there. Why would you take the risk to become an entrepreneur?
[00:12:53] Unknown:
Yeah. Well, first of all, it's in my blood because my father is an entrepreneur. My my granddad was an entrepreneur, and they had, had shops as well. So, I was I was stimulated by that, basically. And once I start doing it, I really love the sense of freedom. Because, yeah, you can basically, especially right now, I can I can just say no to things? Right? I like that. When somebody asks you, can you do this? You can just say no. And when you when you have when you're an employee, you really are I feel obligated to say to say yes to everything. My, my boss tells me to. And now I can just say no, and I can also arrange my own time. Right? So, I have this balance between activities, like I told you, and, I can I can, adjust this balance, the way I want to? So I like that as well.
[00:13:54] Unknown:
Right. Yeah. The the freedom of, time and to say no. That is Yeah. Exactly. Those are the things that attract me as well to entrepreneurship. And just, you know, I don't like people to tell me what to do. Just I just don't like it. You have a problem with with a hierarchy, probably. Yeah. There's probably some some deep thing inside me that I need to resolve or something.
[00:14:17] Unknown:
You have to go to the therapy for that. Yeah.
[00:14:22] Unknown:
Okay. So and before that, did you, have a, a formal education in computer science or something like that? No. No. Not at all. So,
[00:14:33] Unknown:
I am probably what people call a self made man. Yeah. Self made person. And, because I I really I I missed a boat on that one, basically. So I did a study or whatever, and I I didn't get the right people around me probably to to guide me, to the path because I, I did I didn't study. Yeah. I did I did practical education. I did, actually, education around entrepreneurship, so that was included. And back then, you you needed a certificate to create your own company, and I got that at school. Oh. But I didn't go, go study at a university or something. I just started, well, doing what I like, basically.
And, I build I build stuff up from that. Yeah. Okay. That's why that entrepreneurship comes in again.
[00:15:28] Unknown:
You say, alright. I don't I don't really care what you taught me there. I'm just gonna do my own thing.
[00:15:34] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. Basically, that's it. Cool. So,
[00:15:37] Unknown:
in in your core, in your heart of heart, are you an, introvert or an extrovert?
[00:15:44] Unknown:
Introvert. Definitely.
[00:15:46] Unknown:
Okay. Because, you know, in your entrepreneurship where you had to shop and also where you worked with, other people to, teach, in person, which you sometimes still do. Right. That's, that's very extroverted because you need to deal with people. How does that make you feel?
[00:16:05] Unknown:
It took me a long time to get used to that. So in the beginning, I was really, really, tense around that, and I couldn't handle it very much. So I needed some time to, to get used to it. I'm really grateful for the conferences at that time who gay who gave me the opportunity to speak because, Yeah. That was really a struggle for me, and and these talks weren't very good at the beginning, probably. And also, to Pluralsight, of course, gave me that opportunity. So I I I just grew into that. And, and and still I have, well, I can do talk talks like this. I can talk to you. I can I can do conference talks, and and I really enjoy the company of, have other speakers at conferences, or talking to, to talking to, people who take my courses, etcetera, etcetera? I really love that. But, I still notice that, because I'm an introvert probably, I need time afterwards, for myself.
So I'm not a person who who who can extract energy from being with other people. It actually take me energy. And it it doesn't take away the enjoyment around it, because I really enjoy it. But it's it It costs me energy, and I have to recharge afterwards by being by myself and doing my own things. Yeah. Basically. Yeah. That's very well, explained. I I feel completely the same. I can't do And if you want if if you want to win. If you want to know more about that, you can talk to my wife, by the way. Sorry. I was interrupting you. No. No. That's alright.
[00:17:52] Unknown:
So, yeah, I I have the same thing as well. I can do extroverted stuff, like, on stage or something, But it sucks energy from me. It doesn't, doesn't feed my soul. I do like it. I do enjoy it. But then afterwards I need to recharge. That that's very true. Did you know this about yourself, early on, or did you find out that you were an introvert at your core later?
[00:18:17] Unknown:
I kind of already knew that from the beginning. Yeah. It's In the beginning, it it was, it was kind of implicit. And, at some point, it, it became explicit as soon as I, started doing training work. So at that point, I really had to focus on it, and I could actually work on it and and and create some mode, that I could, in which I could handle that, basically.
[00:18:49] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. So for me, I basically knew that as well when I was younger, but then I really, You know, I realized it more when I was older. So I didn't really realize why I was always, why the energy got sucked out of me when I was surrounded by people and why I really didn't like that that much for prolonged periods of time. And then I realized, oh, you know, I'm just an introvert, really. Yeah. And now that you say that, it's actually very interesting.
[00:19:23] Unknown:
At first, now remember things about it. At first, I thought, I was the only one. Right. I was the only one that had this. Right? Yeah. Because you you see all these extrovert people that is really in that really extract energy from company, etcetera, etcetera. And, I was the only one it seems like I was the only one that, wanted to, retract at a certain point and and and go by by by myself. But, of course, the people that also do that, you don't see them. Write. Exactly. Yeah.
[00:20:00] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, the introverted people are also the people that are attracted to the type of work that we do. So, IT and things that you can do by yourself and, you know, things that you can do behind your computer, basically, because that works out well.
[00:20:17] Unknown:
Yeah. Exactly.
[00:20:19] Unknown:
Yeah. So the things that you do now, you know, you are in a very say, You know, you enjoy the the freedom that you can now say no to things, and you can just you can pick and choose what you do. You do a Pluralsight course here. You work, a bit there. Does that also mean that you are financially free? Like, if you were to say, you know what? I'm not gonna do any consulting right now consulting right now and maybe no ProLside courses. Would you Yep.
[00:20:54] Unknown:
So there are a couple of things I want to say there. The answer is yes. So I'm I'm financially free. So, basically, the success of Pluralsight did a lot for that. And at the time I started doing that, it was, it was kind of, well, a thing that I I well, I told you it was something I liked, so that's why I started doing it, not not to make, to make money in the in the first place just because I like doing it, and I still do it because I like it. But, yeah. It, it it brought me, financial freedom, and also, not only Pluralsight, but also the work around it. Like I told you, the consultancy went really well, and everything kind of worked out.
So I'm really grateful for that. But I think I'm not, crediting myself too much for it, because I really think it's more a question of luck, basically, then that it is, emanating from myself. Because I got I got the luck that Pluralsight became a success. I got the luck. I, I I I I became a a Microsoft MVP, for example, and other people liked what I what I was doing, and other MVPs supported me. So I had luck in that. Of course, I did stuff for that, but the really the opportunities were there. I just I just had to grab them, basically. Yeah. So so, I'm grateful for that because, there are so many other people that don't have these opportunities. Right? Yeah.
And, and that's that's really something I'm realizing every day that that, well, I'm not saying, well, I am I I did this and I did that. No. I'm I'm like, okay. There there's There's probably a really big, luck factor there.
[00:23:04] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. I do agree. I have, kind of the same situation where I also have Pluralsight there. That is a huge component of my, financial situation. And I was just lucky as well that I got into Pluralsight and even discovered it in the first place. And that it became and is still a success for now. Exactly. Yeah. So I'm I'm very lucky with that as well. And I also try and think about the future. Like Pluralsight, what would happen if Pluralsight would go away tomorrow? It's unlikely, but, you know, maybe they get acquired by something else or, you know, the company goes in a different direction. It is something that we do not control ourselves.
I don't own parasites. You don't. So we have no idea. What if it would go away? What would you do then?
[00:23:53] Unknown:
So, I would not stop what I'm doing right now. So I would find another way to do what I'm doing. So maybe, go to YouTube or something, creating videos for that, or finding another platform that, that does what it does, that's into software development. There are other platforms out there as well, but I wouldn't stop because, just Pluralsight isn't there anymore. So my motivation for doing what I'm doing is not tied to Pluralsight as a company.
[00:24:29] Unknown:
Right. Yeah. That's excellent. And, so, our Pluralsight colleagues, we have a lot of Pluralsight colleagues that are, full time authors, where they just do courses. They create courses, they do the research online, and they draw from their past experiences as well, and then they just create courses. You do it differently. Right? Because you also do consultancy. Why do you do that?
[00:24:57] Unknown:
Yeah. So I I believe in the fact that the best teaching is done, from practice. So, I consciously do, do projects, actually writing code, actually being involved in get an agile process, talking to people, creating an Azure pipeline, that kind of stuff, create a development pipeline or whatever deployment pipelines. So the whole the whole thing, because, I'm there there are a couple of reasons for that. So one so one thing is, like I told you, it's it's it's a it's a matter of belief that I think I can do the best teaching when I have this experience under the belt. That's 1.
And the second thing is that I'm actually, inspired by that work. So when I when I'm doing that work, I'm seeing things, either technically or or in the organization. And I get got I I get ideas from that. So I'm like, okay. Well, maybe I could do a course around that, or, create a conference talk for that, or, so then, when I have this this plan, and I am I'm executing that plan, I'm doing research around it, I gain more knowledge around it, and then I go to the next company, and then I can actually apply that knowledge again in that company, and I get this synergy effect between my activities.
And that that's re really working out really great. That that's that's working out really great for me.
[00:26:48] Unknown:
Yeah. I think that's also, the way to go because then you actually teach from, experience, and you can you can add your real world experience. That is usually different than just the documentation and all the things that, that is very polished and marketing esque. Because when you actually start doing something, then you run into the nitty gritties and the, oh, well, it doesn't work if you do this, or you need to configure it just like this because otherwise, you know, you get this error.
[00:27:16] Unknown:
Yeah. Exactly. So I I like to do when I do classroom training, of course, Pluralsight course is all scripted and and really nice and compact. But when I do classroom training, I like to do I like to do live demos. So, when when we when we're discussing a topic, I first explain the topic in theory, and then I just go, behind the keyboard, and I'm I'm writing something to explain it. But, so I've not practice that or something, so, things go wrong, basically. So and I I actually show that because that's reality. Right? You're a developer. You're writing code. Things go wrong always. You have to how do you solve these problems? Right? So you you can't remember this. You can't remember, how a property is declared or whatever.
Yeah. How do you solve that? Right? And that's actually, how I, how I teach classroom training. And from the feedback back I got, people really like that, and they can apply that, well, problem solving, thing that I that I'm that I'm actually showing, to, in the real world.
[00:28:35] Unknown:
Yeah. Yeah. Maybe we should incorporate that in the pro side courses more as well. Yeah.
[00:28:40] Unknown:
Yeah. I am not sure that they would like that. But
[00:28:45] Unknown:
they do like their stuff, very polished. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. So we are almost at the the end of the time that we have. What would you say to people that are listening that are starting their careers, maybe in technology or something, they haven't sign a jet if they want to stay, work for a company or be an entrepreneur or, or maybe in what kind of technology they want to be at or what they want to do with their the rest of their lives. Well, who actually knows? But what would you say to them? What is your advice to young
[00:29:19] Unknown:
people. Yeah. So this is this is really a cliche probably, but I'm going to say it anyways. Do what you love. Right? That's basically the the message. So, when you are so when you are looking for a job or you don't know exactly what you like to do. But you have a hobby, and you like you have a certain interest, and you're watching get a lot of YouTube on the topic or whatever, or you're reading stuff about around that. That's an indicator, around what you want. And even when that it seems that it is not feasible to to start your career in that topic, just do it.
Just try it. And maybe you can you cannot earn money, from the start from it, and then just do it part time or or make it work, just, just start doing it. And and The other thing I wanted to say is, well, in my experience, the the opportunities are always there, almost always there, but you really have to see them. Right? And and and it's especially difficult when you're an introvert like me. You sometimes you have to step forward and say, okay. I see this opportunity. I want that. Right? I really want I would love that. You can and when you say that to people, and, like, they can see your passion, and they are inclined to to help you or or, create a way for you to do it. All right. That's beautiful.
[00:30:58] Unknown:
Thank you very much.
[00:30:59] Unknown:
I'm crying right now.
[00:31:04] Unknown:
Well, thank you so much, for talking to me today. This was, this was a great conversation.
[00:31:09] Unknown:
You're welcome, buddy. Alright. I really enjoyed this talk. Me too.
[00:31:14] Unknown:
I hope, everybody that listened, did as well. I will link to, where you can find Roland's courses and his website and Twitter and connect with him in the show notes so that you can easily do that. Do reach out to him and follow him on Pluralsight. He has great courses about asp.net, the asp.netcore, other stuff, microservices, React, SignalR, you name it. He has so many courses. Just follow him there for new material as well. And thank you very much for listening, and we'll talk to you next week. Could you please go to rate this podcast.com/developerweekly and rate this podcast and leave a review?
This helps me to spread the word about the podcast and helps other people to find it. That is rate This podcast.com/developerweebly. Thank you so much.
